ashoka: It is not good to run after siddhis, yet siddhis run after the One who
is totally with God. He is with God Barphani Baba is such a saint
madhuri: It is like the musk deer in search of the scent not knowing that the
scent emanates from itself.
bindu: yes that is right maa.
madhuri: I don't believe that.God is someone within you. I don't like living
saints performing things which mortals can't do
tantrasiddhi: yeah totally agree with u@ma. Running after anything is not bad
if you remember krishnas vakya though. karmanyae vadhikaarasthe maphaleshu
kadachana.......
dhaniganesh: What does that mean tantra ji? Maa, what's wrong with siddhis?
tantrasiddhi: Dhanni, it means working is my only right but not the result ...ie
we should do kartavya like karma yoga. But you should not be even attached to
the results.
ashoka: Nothing is wrong with siddhis Dhanni. But one who loves God needs
nothing else, not even power "like" God! But Powers Come by themselves.
dhaniganesh: Ok. but siddhis are god too are they not?
ashoka: yes all is God.
madhuri: The practice of Tantra, as far as I know, is about invoking your
extraordinary powers it is like invoking your kundalini.
ashoka: Yes, tantra.
ashoka: Bindu the floor is yours now.
tantrasiddhi: yeah madhriji you are right.
tantrasiddhi: Yes ganeshji, siddhis are not obstacles if they are treated with
caution.
madhuri: one thing that i am fond of is nishkaama karma.
arunachala: It is the mortals which limit themselves to their mortality. God
and all its wonders is here right now. He is that which satisfies all desires
and wishes.
dhaniganesh: m
bindu: We should do what He tells us and let Him take care of the results
because everything is His even the results.
ashoka: for some reason, i cannot see madhuri ji here in yahoo.
tantrasiddhi: Buddha has said that if you can be totally aware even for a
second then you will be self-realized.
dhaniganesh: in uddhav gita He talks about the siddhis
arunachala: Exactly tantrasiddhiji, this is only possible because nirvana is
at the very core of existence. it is constantly present. It is beyond the
changes we see.
dhaniganesh: so Siddhis are dangerous then?
tantrasiddhi: No Dhanni, they are dangerous only if there is no sense of
control.
madhuri: It is accepted universally because some European philosophers have
said if u seek something u will miss that
arunachala: attachment to siddhis is the obstacle to ones path
ashoka: Tyrone, yes that is correct.
madhuri: It is said that if you do something dispassionately you will get the
reward.
tantrasiddhi: Yes but if you have doubt then result will suffer
bindu: If there is something to be had, who has it? certainly not the Jiva as
only The Self exists. Who seeks what? Only the Jiva seeks because The Self
already has it. Seeking means going away from The Self. Thinking He has not
got it is delusional and ignorance also.
dhaniganesh: The Self seeks himself.
madhuri: Everyone in this word is seeking something. Let everybody seek it
with in him he/she will sure find it
ashoka: Hari is searching for Hari
bindu: there should be no seeking madhuri. We should realize The Self is right
under our noses.
tantrasiddhi: I remember a story from Upanishads.
About two birds one is not seeking anything, sitting only on one branch with
peace, and another going here and there searching different fruits. At last
the restless bird realizes that in fact it was the cool bird which was sitting
peacefully.
dhaniganesh: bindu ji.....is Jiva different from the fragment or is Jiva the
same thing
madhuri: It is human nature to seek. I am an ordinary human being
bindu: Dhanni, the Jiva and the fragment are the same thing.
Madhuri, Even if the Jiva seeks god he is
seeking an illusion because he thinks there is a seeker who will get
something.
madhuri: I have emotions feelings needs.
bindu: All of that is his moola-maya madhuri
Nishu has said:
"Moola maya is the lords potency which is inferior to his superior spiritual
nature.. It is also called the material nature which is in continuous change
and flux. Even though it is eternal, its manifestation is temporary."
She is right. There are no selves who have anything ... all belongs to The
Self.
madhuri: I am not prepared to believe that it is all maya illusion.
dhaniganesh: right under our noses.........how? Where? is it the referrer?
bindu: Yes it is the referer Dhanni.
Who says "I AM NOT PREPARED"? is it not the Jiva? The Self already has
everything and has no need of seeking Himself.
dhaniganesh: so the self has everything? So dhani disappears now?
madhuri: no i feel i am lacking and my my journey in life is towards
perfection.
bindu: Yes Dhanni, that is correct.
When there is reference to I-ness there is The Self referring to the Jiva as
if the jiva is himself
arunachala: Self-inquiry and surrender-- both are VERY IMPORTANT.
bindu: madhuri, who says this----> "I" feel "I" am lacking and my journey in
life is towards perfection. I am not prepared to surrender.
dhaniganesh: Yes bindu ji i understand it......but the Jiva who is dhani
doesn't get it.
madhuri: i am prepared to accept.
arunachala: Same thing my friend. Universal Acceptance is liberation
bindu: madhuri, you say "I" feel "I am prepared"
arunachala: Do as sri Bhishma did in mahabharata. Surrender to the mother.
that is acceptance
bindu: No one gets that The Self is The Self in all selves
dhaniganesh: > i < don't get it
bindu: Dhanni dear, the "I" cannot get it at all. Because the moment he is
mentioned there is the jiva .. But the jiva is a non-existent reflection of
The Self in His own consciousness.
dhaniganesh: So what to do?
madhuri: I do exist, I cannot deny myself, I can start my enquiry only if i
accept my existence.
kerryman: hari om - from Scotland.
dhaniganesh: hi kerry
tantrasiddhi: hari om kerryji
bindu: Welcome Kerry.
Madhuri, who enquires after what?
madhuri: Are you talking about total negation?
bindu: no i am not.
I am talking about total acceptance of The Self as The Self in all.
madhuri: At least I must accept my existence?
bindu: No madhuri, you must accept that only The Self exists AS ALL that
exists...... for example all IS tThe Self. Hence neither i nor you nor anyone
else exists
arunachala: We must come to Know what existence is. 'i am that i am'.
madhuri: no no u cant say that all exists because you exist. I am that I am is
a positive statement it confirms existence. I exist therefore I am.
kerryman: hi bindu
bindu: no madhuri ... when you refer to yourself as "me" or to any "I" "IN
YOU" you refer to the Jiva. but since there is only One Real Self how can the
Jiva be anything but an illusion?
dhaniganesh: this Jiva.........a problem? what to do about Jiva?
arunachala: In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad there is a verse that describes
how, at the beginning of the universe, the Self became aware of itself as 'I':
In the beginning this [universe] was the Self alone… He [the Self] reflected
and saw nothing but the Self. He first said, 'I am He'. Therefore He came to
be known by the name aham ['I'].
'I' thus became the first name of God. Bhagavan corroborated the sentiments
expressed in this verse when he told a devotee, 'The one, infinite, unbroken
whole [plenum] became aware of itself as ''I''. This is its original name. All
other names, for example Om, are later growths.'
madhuri: the problem is that the concept of Jiva is not clear.
bindu: The Self is the SAME SELF in ALL beings... it is He who Says "I" in
every mind in existence ... but He is not what he refers to, else he could not
refer to it unless it was over there at some distance away from him.
bindu: Jiva is exactly that madhuri - "A concept only" and as such it has no
self-nature and is not self-conscious either; thus the concept of I-ness is
false. there is only The Self, He is the one who says "I am " in ALL beings.
He alone is the one who sees "ALL" thoughts IN ALL BEINGS ...for example he
says in you "I am Madhuri" - He says "I feel" He says "I HEAR"
the Jiva cannot refer to himself because it is The Self who is the conscious
one "IN THE JIVA" - the Jiva is not conscious in its own right.
yet in reality the mind does not exist.
Jiva is conscious only of Hari (of the one who says "I").
madhuri: Oh well I cannot think of that situation. I can understand if "I"
means "HE"
bindu: you say "I cannot think of that situation" - that is just the point....
madhuri: I cannot think with out I or me.
bindu: Of course you cannot which proves that The Self is The "I" of ME"!
NO ONE CAN THINK WHO HARI IS.... because only Hari knows who He is.... if He
was known that is Self-realization.... this means He realizes Himself in
Himself as Himself; the Jeeva cannot realize him. That is why the realized
ones are no different from Hari himself.
dhaniganesh: Jiva cannot do anything
madhuri: I am confused May be I am not up to your level of thinking.
bindu: madhuri, that is right YOU cannot think without the "I" of you
as He is The Real Self! He (Hari) is the thinker, He is the hearer, He is the
seer, He is the feeler, the taster and the only doer.
dhaniganesh: What is this Jiva?
madhuri: I don't exist at all?
bindu: Jiva is the concept of i-ness; and yes madhuri, you do not exist at
all. because Jiva is a concept and has no self-nature.
Knowing what Jiva is, and of what it is constructed is useless information.
dhaniganesh: What does hari see and hear?
ashoka: he sees only hari, Dhanni.
dhaniganesh: what is useful information
bindu: Useful information dhanni, is knowing that The Self is "ALL in ALL"
beings.. It is knowing The Self is ONLY one...
dhaniganesh: ok so, the mind gets that information. Then what
madhuri: I feel so sad that I am proved wrong.
bindu: It is knowing the Jiva (the "I" of you) is merely a reflection and
cannot do anything, just as a reflected image in a mirror cannot do anything
unless the man who is reflected in the mirror does it.
In the same way the Jeeva are reflections of hari in his own consciousness;
hence the trillions of Jeeva are his fragmented beingness.
but they cannot act without He who walks past the mirror of his own
consciousness; yet who is this amazing hari?
madhuri: I am talking the same thing that I am thee and Thou art me.
dhaniganesh: yeah
bindu: yes madhuri you are right of course BUT - "YOU" are "NOT" HIM
"HE" IS "YOU" the mistake is that people think they can become him or realize
him. That is incorrect information. The non-conscient Jiva cannot realize him
at all.
HE IS THE ONE WHO REALIZES HIMSELF IN HIMSELF AS HIMSELF!
dhaniganesh: how does he do that?
bindu: Well, at the final moment a switch occurs in the mind where The Self
reveals Himself to Himself; the mind is struck dumb and cannot speak in His
presence, nor can it think.
dhaniganesh: Would you flip the switch in this mind please; Strike!
bindu: The limited consciousness, which exist in the head suddenly leaves its
limitation and expands to the point of disappearing into Hari... and like a
drop lost in the ocean, that limited jiva consciousness can not be found
afterwards.
dhaniganesh: Sounds beautiful.
tantrasiddhi: wow
bindu: At this point it is then realized that the Jiva cannot experience
anything and is not the doer because the drop had dissolved into the Conscious
Absolute.
bindu: i have said before, that the error is that in the English translations
they speak of it as "The Absolute Consciousness"
tantrasiddhi: yatha pinde tatha bramhande
bindu: This is incorrect information. The Self is "NOT" AN ATTRIBUTE of
SOMETHING ELSE"
The Conscient ONE is the Conscious Absolute He alone is conscious!
the consciousNESS is not CONSCIOUS AT ALL! To think that the COnsciousNESS is
conscious is only one side of the coin. We must realize the god with and
without form if we are to realize WHO we really are.
Thus the Unknowable Self alone knows Himself; This alone is Self-realization.
He is the one who is conscious of the ConsciousNESS.
dhaniganesh: re cognition
bindu: yes exactly dhanni
bindu: RE - cognition, remembrance - FORE ... given; this means given before;
i.e. He gives Himself to Himself; He exists PRIOR to the consciousNESS. Else
how could He become conscious of it?
dhaniganesh: dhani got that from the archive - "remembrance"
bindu: Hence the grace IS fore given;
ashoka: for get to get but do forgive.
tantrasiddhi: dwandvateetam,......tatvateetam.
bindu: The jiva cannot give Him to Himself as the Jiva is merely A REFLECTION!
tantrasiddhi: yeah nice analogy
dhaniganesh: dhani thinks madhvacharya says Jiva is completely dependent on
hari
tantrasiddhi: param is seeing himself in mirror of maya and thinking he is
Jiva the reflection!
bindu: jiva is completely dependant on Hari ... yes without Hari the
reflection in the consciousness which is called Jiva cannot exist... just as
your own reflection in the mirror cannot exist without you.
dhaniganesh: Only self as "me" - "he" - "she"!
bindu: In this world there is cause and effect (karma) when all causes are
realized to be Hari and all effects are realized to be Hari how can there be
any cause or effect? How can there be any karma then? ... since all is the
same ?
Genderless is Hari, as all genders are reflections ... female is neg of male
... male is neg of female. So then it is said we must treat all beings as if
they are the self.
dhaniganesh: Who is "we".
bindu: ah! dhanni, if we treat all as The Self (INCLUDING ourselves) then we
will be practicing parabhakti.
tantrasiddhi: "We" is the diversity of "me". Like there are many drops in
ocean yet it is a ocean one single.
bindu: Yes. This means compassion will be natural and the same with universal
brotherhood and love.
tantrasiddhi: yatha pinde tatha bramhande
bindu: There will be acceptance of all as The Self ... great love and bliss
arises from this.
dhaniganesh: so being Selfish is para bhakti?
bindu: Dhanni, selfish in the sense of treating all as The Self and not
withholding anything from The Self, is parabhakti.
dhaniganesh: m, dhani was trying to make a joke.
bindu: Not fearing to give, but giving ALL even to The Self in ourselves
but the supreme selfishness is to know that there is only One Self, hence
selfishness to Him means nothing as there are no others. Just like a selfish
child sees no one but himself; So does Hari see none but himself
that is why we have to SEE ONLY HIM, HE IS ALL SELVES IN ALL BEINGS.
dhaniganesh: beautiful, no clouds in the sky.
bindu: HE says "I THINK" in all minds. Yes no clouds
Blue
Looking up we see the blue sky
below the mist......
Above the sky.......
Looking into the mind. .Mist.........
Looking into love.........
A sky .....
In a clear consciousness
In a clear sky there are no clouds.
With the leap of faith knowing pervades being.
Loving we Know peace......
Intellectualizing we see mist
Ghosts......Emptiness.........
Above Love.......Thus are we
able to let go of knowing.
Above.......sky
below.....Mist.......
bindu: so then the ultimate renunciation is acceptance of Hari; it is not the
giving up but the acceptance of the non-existence of Jiva. which is the exact
same thing as the acceptance that ALL is Hari.
dhaniganesh: m, from uddhav gita;
krishna says: 11.13.24. "Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind,
speech, eyes or other senses is "Me" alone and nothing besides Me. All of you
please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts"
dhaniganesh: Is that true?
bindu: yes that is right Dhanni
dhaniganesh: Whatever is perceived by the mind........so The Self of each
perception is The Self.
tantrasiddhi: binduji one question - a weird question coming to my mind
why is it said that u have to be born as a human to be enlightened? cant
ghosts be enlightened? Why should they take a body made up of water and earth?
bindu: tantra that applies to this world only.
tantrasiddhi: oh, maybe only a human being experiences the need?
dhaniganesh: dhani thinks that is said for motivation purposes
bindu: dhanni let me address tantras question a bit deeper.
tantrasiddhi: oh yeah may be it is dhanni.
dhaniganesh: like humans are special or something?
dhaniganesh: ok ji
bindu: Well no, humans are no more special than an ant or a germ or a whale ..
in fact all are equal it is arrogance to think otherwise since all are
fragments of The Self... but let me address tanra's question now.
bindu: In this world tantra.... the human being is the most developed mode of
the consciousness of Hari, but it is not the last mode of consciousness before
Hari realizes Himself in Himself.
The gods are the last level of being before full realization... but Sri
Krishna is the final GOD before the realization of the Conscious Absolute
(which incidentally is the Transcendental Lord-in-Himself) ... the closest the
human mind can come to understanding in words who the Transcendental Lord is
... is to say He is the naked reality.
He is unspeakable.... The mind cannot think who He is; nor can it imagine
because the mind appears in Him He is not in it. If he was in the mind He
would be subordinate to it and dependent upon it for His existence which is
preposterous and ridiculous.
That is why all minds appear in Him and the same applies to all things that
exist; hence all is IN HIM. He is, in that way The Transcendental Lord -- Om
Tat Sat!
dhaniganesh: So when the referrer 'recognizes' Himself in Himself as
Dhanni........cognizing.....that is not a function of the mind ......
bindu: No it is not a function of the mind it is Hari recognizing HE is not
the mind or the Jiva.
tantrasiddhi: dhaniji in Oshos words all the gyan yog thing is to put the mind
in one frame. Confuse the mind so much that it becomes dead still.
bindu: no tantra, that is unproductive.
dhaniganesh: So the thought of Him in the mind.........is it of any use?
bindu: Dhanni , in Siva sutra it is written : "By Non-Contemplation of me are
you bound" This means that the moment there is contemplation upon this Jiva as
Self you are bound to be Jiva.. On the other hand if you contemplate (keep in
mind) that all is Hari that is the most useful thing you can do, as it will
transform the mind.
tantrasiddhi: ic@binduji how?
bindu: tantra, the mind is like a pool - the thoughts are ripples. if we try
to stop the ripples by getting into the pool we will only make more ripples
so we have to leave the mind alone and it will go still like a pool does after
a little time.
tantrasiddhi: yeah right if u take that analogy
bindu: Leave the mind alone and it will go still all by itself.
How to leave it alone is to practice refusing to see clouds.
tantrasiddhi: ok binduji that's one way of looking at it
dhaniganesh: hehe
bindu: it is too see all as Hari; you see clouds represent what are thought to
be real things but clouds are mere smoke and mist. When you are standing on
the ground looking up, they look solid but they are not.
tantrasiddhi: oshos dynamic meditations tell us that; he often uses cyclone
instead of pool, he tells us be the center of cyclone
bindu: What cyclone is that? There is no movement because a thing in itself
cannot move; If The Self is the One and only One that exists.
then it is singular and cannot move since what will move is itself.
but a thing in itself cannot move, so movement (which translates as time)
cannot exist. Hence The Self is eternal and deathless.
Om Tat Sat.
tantrasiddhi: no binduji we have to see the moon and not the finger pointing
at it. osho says
dhaniganesh: YOu mean "Bruce Lee" tantra? Who sees what? And where......at
what time?
bindu: There is no moon and no finger either tantra. There is only The Self, i
said he is indescribable, so who sees what? no one knows, only He knows.
tantrasiddhi: loll@binduji
bindu: There are no Osho's and no Bruce Lees.
dhaniganesh: jai sri krishna! Who says This?
tantrasiddhi: That way you can say even He is not there...well that doesn't
matter.
bindu: yes @ what time in what place ? since no place exists. Hence he is
unspeakable, unimaginable, Transcendent, Completely Himself in Himself
no others exists, not even ANYTHING.
tantrasiddhi: yup that's what i was saying he is unspeakable...but shastras
speak to show that he is unspeakable.
dhaniganesh: para bindu
bindu: Yes that is correct tantra. We can only point when we try to
communicate but HE IS THE ONE WHO WILL REALIZE HIMSELF.
tantrasiddhi: ok
dhaniganesh: The shastras speak.......not thus not thus ..
bindu: Neither the one pointing nor the one who sees Him pointing can describe
it. net neti!
dhaniganesh: not this thing not that thing -- no thing.
bindu: That is why i say He is nothing Dhanni.
dhaniganesh: m
tantrasiddhi: shunnya
dhaniganesh: void of voids!
bindu: The English translation is that the empty mind is Him is incorrect
information.
dhaniganesh: m
bindu: Emptiness is comparable to fullness hence duality.
dhaniganesh: empty mind is a thing?
bindu: Yes dhanni, empty mind is a concept, but he is not emptiness nor
fullness -- He is nothing; nothing can never be anything; nor is nothing
knowable; but he knows.
dhaniganesh: him as bindu knows
bindu: The word "nothing" is as close as the English language can come ...
this far and no further; from that point of nothingness, there is The Naked
reality which is the conscious ONE also.
Jai Sri Krishna
